Conversation with #hplusroadmap at Mon 07 Apr 2008 04:45:39 PM CDT on kanzure@irc.freenode.net (irc)

(2008-04-07 16:45:39) The topic for #hplusroadmap is: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Self-replication | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help
(2008-04-07 16:46:26) kanzure: !help
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(2008-04-07 16:56:24) kanzure: fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb#File_format
(2008-04-07 16:56:26) krebs: [Link Info] title: Societal engineering knowledge database - Biohack
(2008-04-07 16:58:02) kanzure: epitron: You around?
(2008-04-07 16:58:46) kanzure: Anissimov might need some emergency hosting.
(2008-04-07 17:07:23) epitron: ohm, sure
(2008-04-07 17:07:32) epitron: what's he need hosted?
(2008-04-07 17:08:13) kanzure: Anissimov
(2008-04-07 17:08:17) kanzure: he was on the front page of digg
(2008-04-07 17:29:57) epitron: ok
(2008-04-07 17:30:05) epitron: well, give me some more info
(2008-04-07 17:30:11) epitron: or maybe tell him to talk to me :)
(2008-04-07 17:31:11) epitron: i can't seem to find him on digg either
(2008-04-07 17:31:13) epitron: you wanna give me some hints?
(2008-04-07 17:31:24) kanzure: ah, he says everything is okay
(2008-04-07 17:31:35) epitron: ok :)
(2008-04-07 17:31:47) epitron: can you give me the link to his thing? I'm curious what this is now :)
(2008-04-07 17:31:54) kanzure: well, it's down
(2008-04-07 17:31:58) epitron: hahah
(2008-04-07 17:31:59) kanzure: so
(2008-04-07 17:31:59) kanzure: http://web.archive.org/web/20070814121108/http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/
(2008-04-07 17:32:00) krebs: [Link Info] title: Accelerating Future
(2008-04-07 17:32:03) epitron: probem SOLEVD
(2008-04-07 17:32:55) epitron: which article was dugg?
(2008-04-07 17:36:19) kanzure: it was obviously something in 2008
(2008-04-07 17:36:20) kanzure: so I don't know
(2008-04-07 17:40:42) epitron: :)
(2008-04-07 17:42:22) kanzure: http://digg.com/general_sciences/10_Futuristic_Materials
(2008-04-07 17:42:23) kanzure: that may have been it
(2008-04-07 17:42:24) krebs: [Link Info] title: Digg - 10 Futuristic Materials
(2008-04-07 17:57:50) fenn: not in archive
(2008-04-07 18:08:34) epitron: http://funtarded.com/pics/show/2368
(2008-04-07 18:08:34) krebs: [Link Info] title: 1_gigabyte_is_so_much_less_manly_today.jpg :: Funtarded!
(2008-04-07 19:09:23) Enki-2 left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(2008-04-07 19:15:34) Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] entered the room.
(2008-04-07 19:25:42) mech0r left the room (quit: "[04:12] <meK3> go fuck opt [04:12] <[TOP]kotton> i will [04:12] <[TOP]kotton> now [04:12] <[TOP]kotton> we can go all night m).
(2008-04-07 19:57:51) Nevermore [n=nevermor@131.229.176.252] entered the room.
(2008-04-07 19:58:06) Nevermore left the room.
(2008-04-07 20:01:19) kanzure: who was Nevermore?
(2008-04-07 20:09:24) Aulere [n=nevermor@131.229.176.252] entered the room.
(2008-04-07 20:23:10) drazak [i=drazak@drazak.net] entered the room.
(2008-04-07 20:23:30) kanzure: Welcome drazak.
(2008-04-07 20:23:33) kanzure: check the /topic
(2008-04-07 20:23:39) ***drazak waves
(2008-04-07 20:27:43) BDrago1 [n=noah@ip68-14-89-105.ri.ri.cox.net] entered the room.
(2008-04-07 20:27:49) kanzure: Hey Noah.
(2008-04-07 20:27:52) kanzure: Please stick around.
(2008-04-07 20:27:56) BDrago1: Hi. I shall.
(2008-04-07 20:28:00) BDrago1 is now known as Noahj
(2008-04-07 20:28:10) kanzure: recent topics of interest are in the /topic
(2008-04-07 20:28:27) drazak: heh
(2008-04-07 20:30:08) kanzure: Noah and I go way back, a year at least
(2008-04-07 20:30:26) Noahj: Yeah, although I still haven't caught up
(2008-04-07 20:31:28) Noahj: Right now I'm putting a piezo on my throat and overmodulating it to make music, also, I'm compiling the cvs version of gnuitar to do guitar effects. With the ultimate goal of doing a guitar solo with my throat. I don't know if that's cyborgy enough to qualify mentioning on this channel, though.
(2008-04-07 20:32:34) kanzure: maybe if you speak in Taylor polynomials it'll be cyborgy enough
(2008-04-07 20:35:37) Noahj: Hmm, I think I'd have to be using the piezo as a speaker for that
(2008-04-07 20:36:01) Noahj: What do these have to do with cyborgs?
(2008-04-07 20:36:29) kanzure: yanking your chain
(2008-04-07 20:37:04) Noahj: Ah. Well... that's, uh, a good way to flush a toilet if the thing on the side is broken, I guess.
(2008-04-07 20:40:03) Noahj: I feel like I've stopped an important discussion or something
(2008-04-07 20:40:23) Noahj: But I guess on this channel most people are probably distracted by their tRMS machines or whatever
(2008-04-07 20:40:55) kanzure: I'm off talking with drazak, waiting for fenn to get back online so that we can discuss the updates to the skdb article I threw together,
(2008-04-07 20:41:10) kanzure: Aulere is off studying for psych, epitron is doing who knows who, Enki-2 is conversing in #wrongplanet, and krebs is a bot
(2008-04-07 20:41:28) ***drazak is conversing, and reading the calc book
(2008-04-07 20:42:27) kanzure: cal book
(2008-04-07 20:42:28) kanzure: calc = calculator
(2008-04-07 20:42:30) kanzure: cal = calculus
(2008-04-07 20:42:48) Aulere: cog neuro actually, but yeah
(2008-04-07 20:43:02) Noahj: Ca = California and CA = Cellular Automata?
(2008-04-07 20:43:03) fenn: meep
(2008-04-07 20:43:10) Noahj: Except Ca's probably also an element
(2008-04-07 20:43:10) drazak: beep?
(2008-04-07 20:43:24) kanzure: fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb please check out the big giant paragraphs - I think I've narrowed down some ideas
(2008-04-07 20:43:27) Noahj: Yeah.
(2008-04-07 20:43:29) Noahj: Calcium.
(2008-04-07 20:43:29) kanzure: but please excuse the massive paragraph structure
(2008-04-07 20:43:30) krebs: [Link Info] title: Societal engineering knowledge database - Biohack
(2008-04-07 20:44:01) drazak: CA is calcium
(2008-04-07 20:44:13) drazak: 45.5 formula weight
(2008-04-07 20:44:21) drazak: 23? atomic number
(2008-04-07 20:44:44) Noahj: 20, I thought
(2008-04-07 20:44:54) Noahj: Anyway, Ca is calcium
(2008-04-07 20:45:05) Noahj: CA is cellular automata I hope. But it gets ambiguous...
(2008-04-07 20:45:19) fenn: i'm playing with 'phun'.. if you throw enough stupidity at a problem it begins to look quite biological: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/phun.png
(2008-04-07 20:45:20) krebs: [Link Info] type: image/png, size: 263,410 bytes
(2008-04-07 20:45:38) Noahj: Hey, I just installed that today
(2008-04-07 20:45:55) Noahj: But I can't use it because of proprietary nvidia drivers not working unless I've got kernel sources that match my current kernel
(2008-04-07 20:45:56) kanzure: -- without my influence, fenn, I did no linking to Noah
(2008-04-07 20:46:01) Noahj: And I installed a binary kernel because I'm lazy
(2008-04-07 20:46:14) drazak: ew, binary kernels
(2008-04-07 20:46:17) Noahj: Yeah, yeah
(2008-04-07 20:46:23) Noahj: I ought to recompile. I will.
(2008-04-07 20:46:25) drazak: mmmm gentoo (not genkernel, genkernel is shit)
(2008-04-07 20:46:40) Noahj: yeah, sabayon is worse though
(2008-04-07 20:46:52) drazak: sabayon is a POS
(2008-04-07 20:46:54) Noahj: Sabayon is like genkernel to the whateverth
(2008-04-07 20:47:00) Noahj: Yeah. Well. I've learned that the hard way.
(2008-04-07 20:47:21) Noahj: Debian sucks on this machine so I figured I'd install gentoo, but I didn't have two months
(2008-04-07 20:47:31) fenn: kanzure: synthetic serendipity?
(2008-04-07 20:47:37) kanzure: fenn: hm?
(2008-04-07 20:47:51) drazak: debian is nice on servers
(2008-04-07 20:47:52) Noahj: Serendipity? What? Is this peacefulness or a CMS?
(2008-04-07 20:48:07) Noahj: Debian is nice on old machines, too
(2008-04-07 20:48:13) Noahj: It's annoying to have to compile everything
(2008-04-07 20:48:17) drazak: (or Serendipity the chocolate parlor?)
(2008-04-07 20:48:23) drazak: gentoo is nice too, if you do distcc
(2008-04-07 20:48:26) fenn: serendipity is fortuitous coincidence
(2008-04-07 20:48:27) Noahj: Yeah, synthetic chocolate?
(2008-04-07 20:48:31) Noahj: Distcc?
(2008-04-07 20:48:44) Noahj: Oh, yeah, serenity is peacefulness. I always get those messed up.
(2008-04-07 20:48:49) drazak: distributed c compiler
(2008-04-07 20:48:59) kanzure: fenn: how so? (not your last message)
(2008-04-07 20:49:00) Noahj: Oh, right, I heard about that a couple years back
(2008-04-07 20:49:01) drazak: it's a gcc/g++ extension, it allows compilation over the network
(2008-04-07 20:49:09) Noahj: Where would I distribute it to, though?
(2008-04-07 20:49:19) Noahj: I've got no cluster to speak of
(2008-04-07 20:49:29) drazak: just another machine
(2008-04-07 20:49:31) Noahj: Well, none at all. If I did have one, though, I probably wouldn't speak of it :-D
(2008-04-07 20:49:32) kanzure: Noah. You get free machines from MIT.
(2008-04-07 20:49:41) Noahj: Yeah, gentoo is slow on all my machines
(2008-04-07 20:49:45) drazak: you can add lots of machines, all they need to do is run a distcc compiler
(2008-04-07 20:49:51) drazak: Then you did gentoo wrong :P
(2008-04-07 20:49:53) Noahj: Well, yeah, there was that one. But my father took it to do lawyerly stuff on
(2008-04-07 20:49:55) drazak: what WM?
(2008-04-07 20:50:02) Noahj: Ion. Well. I used to use ion.
(2008-04-07 20:50:11) Noahj: Before the guy who wrote it went loco.
(2008-04-07 20:50:18) ***drazak uses fluxbox
(2008-04-07 20:50:21) drazak: which is very minimal
(2008-04-07 20:50:23) Noahj: Yeah, I'm on fluxbox now
(2008-04-07 20:50:31) Noahj: Yeah, but fluxbox is annoying. It uses windows and not tabs.
(2008-04-07 20:50:35) Noahj: Wmii is nice.
(2008-04-07 20:50:43) drazak: althought it doesn't have all the... WMIMPC? compliance hooks
(2008-04-07 20:51:02) Noahj: Anyway yeah, mostly compiling X takes a lot of time
(2008-04-07 20:51:02) drazak: I wouldn't mind giving my fluxbox a little eyecandy, with compiz-fusion
(2008-04-07 20:51:16) Noahj: I go through eyecandy phases
(2008-04-07 20:51:20) kanzure: Enki-2: now would be a good time to jump in with your xu88 stuff for these two
(2008-04-07 20:51:21) fenn: kanzure: ew, natural language specifications, suck
(2008-04-07 20:51:31) Noahj: xu88?
(2008-04-07 20:51:34) kanzure: fenn: unfortunately that's how papers are published
(2008-04-07 20:51:38) fenn: kanzure: that's what we're trying to get away from
(2008-04-07 20:51:38) drazak: Noahj: I sort of like the zoom in thing
(2008-04-07 20:51:40) kanzure: fenn: that's how we've been collecting all of our data
(2008-04-07 20:51:48) drazak: some of my monitors go up to 2048x1536
(2008-04-07 20:51:56) kanzure: fenn: it's just tagging and ontologies
(2008-04-07 20:52:00) drazak: and it'd be nice to be able to have all of that real estate, and still be able to read
(2008-04-07 20:52:02) kanzure: fenn: we need multiple "approach ontologies" for the content
(2008-04-07 20:52:02) Noahj: I made a theme that made KDE look like windows media centre, back when such things were hip
(2008-04-07 20:52:07) drazak: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
(2008-04-07 20:52:11) Noahj: Whoa, that's severly high-res
(2008-04-07 20:52:21) drazak: yeah
(2008-04-07 20:52:24) Noahj: I also used to use enlightenment. Which is essentially fluxbox with eyecandy.
(2008-04-07 20:52:27) kanzure: fenn: I guess you're right.
(2008-04-07 20:52:29) fenn: kanzure: a "readme" is okay, but it shouldnt be the source code too
(2008-04-07 20:52:34) drazak: e11 is niceish
(2008-04-07 20:52:38) Noahj: I used to glue monitors together and use xinerama
(2008-04-07 20:52:43) Noahj: e17 is much better
(2008-04-07 20:52:46) Noahj: e...11?
(2008-04-07 20:52:51) Noahj: I thought the first one was, like, 15
(2008-04-07 20:52:53) kanzure: fenn: but I do not see the necessity of automating it all, actually. That's the only reason to move away from natural-lang-desc, right?
(2008-04-07 20:53:10) Noahj: What's this natural language thing? It sounds important.
(2008-04-07 20:53:19) kanzure: Noahj: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb
(2008-04-07 20:53:21) krebs: [Link Info] title: Societal engineering knowledge database - Biohack
(2008-04-07 20:53:29) drazak: http://drazak.net/misc/pics/dcao0011.jpg
(2008-04-07 20:53:30) krebs: [Link Info] type: image/jpeg, size: 460,390 bytes
(2008-04-07 20:53:31) kanzure: CPAN/apt for engineering and knowledge in general
(2008-04-07 20:53:32) drazak: my favourite poster :D
(2008-04-07 20:53:39) kanzure: instead of just software
(2008-04-07 20:54:12) drazak: Noahj: http://drazak.net/misc/pics/dcao0066.jpg is that monitor, it's 19"
(2008-04-07 20:54:12) krebs: [Link Info] type: image/jpeg, size: 465,648 bytes
(2008-04-07 20:54:48) kanzure: fenn: we have to decide if this just has to be the CPAN/aptitude equivalent for more than software, or if we want the hardcore automation for finding the self-replicators
(2008-04-07 20:54:51) drazak: Noahj: but uhm, I used enlightenment when I was helping the fork of the Arcane linux project, which lasted for all of 6 months(the fork, called Divine), as it came already compiled
(2008-04-07 20:54:57) fenn: a lot of scientific and engineering papers dont give you all the information, they just summarize what they did
(2008-04-07 20:55:06) kanzure: I guess ultimately they are always modeling
(2008-04-07 20:55:13) kanzure: so the trick is to translate the models into the right format
(2008-04-07 20:55:16) fenn: or handwave away the source code because of whatever reason
(2008-04-07 20:55:22) kanzure: indeed
(2008-04-07 20:55:26) kanzure: "reminder: write code here"
(2008-04-07 20:55:38) drazak: Noahj: my servers are in that picture too, haha, and the KVM
(2008-04-07 20:55:43) kanzure: okay, so then I forsee two splits
(2008-04-07 20:55:57) kanzure: (1) the formalized knowledge, automated and encoded as software and various queryable datasets
(2008-04-07 20:56:06) kanzure: (2) the knowledge stuff, see my AutoScholar ref in those paragraphs
(2008-04-07 20:56:20) kanzure: not a split
(2008-04-07 20:56:20) Noahj: Nice keyboard
(2008-04-07 20:56:21) fenn: i want it to be automated or at least 'processable' otherwise it's just wikipedia or hobbycircuits.com
(2008-04-07 20:56:22) kanzure: but it's the same system
(2008-04-07 20:56:27) kanzure: fenn: true enough
(2008-04-07 20:56:29) Noahj: Is that a model M?
(2008-04-07 20:56:32) kanzure: yes, it's an M
(2008-04-07 20:56:36) kanzure: I asked that same damn question
(2008-04-07 20:56:37) drazak: Noahj: yeah, kanzure's already lusting over it
(2008-04-07 20:56:38) Noahj: Is it dvorak?
(2008-04-07 20:56:40) Noahj: Heh
(2008-04-07 20:56:40) drazak: I have 4 of them, too
(2008-04-07 20:56:42) drazak: nah
(2008-04-07 20:56:45) Noahj: I think I have one of those somewhere
(2008-04-07 20:56:48) drazak: I might rearrange one for Dvorak though
(2008-04-07 20:56:53) Noahj: I'm just too lazy to do anything about it
(2008-04-07 20:57:15) drazak: all of those have the keyheads that pop off
(2008-04-07 20:57:21) Noahj: Yeah
(2008-04-07 20:57:30) Noahj: It's very similar to the keyboard on my portable 8088
(2008-04-07 20:57:42) Noahj: Which, one of these days, is going to be useful. I swear it on my pretty floral bonnet.
(2008-04-07 20:57:52) drazak: rofl
(2008-04-07 20:57:56) kanzure: fenn: okay, so it's a way to digest wikipedia and the rest of the knowledge bases (KBs) out there -- so we can queue up information per various topics, then let our programmers (i.e., us) go over it and formalize it
(2008-04-07 20:58:06) fenn: i dont see the difference, actually
(2008-04-07 20:58:10) fenn: oops
(2008-04-07 20:58:12) kanzure: well, I want to do something like
(2008-04-07 20:58:17) kanzure: apt-get install graphene-physics
(2008-04-07 20:58:25) kanzure: and then apt-get install graphene-simulators
(2008-04-07 20:58:26) kanzure: or something
(2008-04-07 20:58:30) kanzure: where we can do apt-cache search graphene
(2008-04-07 20:58:35) kanzure: and get back a list of ontologies related to graphene software
(2008-04-07 20:58:37) drazak: ew apt!
(2008-04-07 20:58:38) fenn: that's just plain debian
(2008-04-07 20:58:40) kanzure: sure
(2008-04-07 20:58:44) kanzure: but I'm giving an example :)
(2008-04-07 20:58:49) fenn: it should already work, provided you have the software
(2008-04-07 20:59:01) kanzure: but the difference is category organizations I think
(2008-04-07 20:59:09) Noahj: Heh
(2008-04-07 20:59:10) kanzure: plus a distinction between processable data of the sort you are talking about
(2008-04-07 20:59:13) kanzure: and knowledge packages
(2008-04-07 20:59:19) kanzure: like the zips I keep on my site for later processing
(2008-04-07 20:59:46) kanzure: btw, Noah and drazak - I have various zips on my server spread out all over the place on CNTs, brain implants, synthetic biology, longevity science, take your pick and I have something
(2008-04-07 20:59:49) fenn: there could be different levels of 'processibility'
(2008-04-07 20:59:53) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-07 20:59:56) drazak: kanzure: maybe later
(2008-04-07 20:59:58) kanzure: human processibility would be the knowledge-base stuff
(2008-04-07 21:00:02) kanzure: and then computer stuff is obvious
(2008-04-07 21:00:08) kanzure: I like that
(2008-04-07 21:00:09) fenn: i.e. one is all natural language, straight from the webpage or journal
(2008-04-07 21:00:17) kanzure: right, with links to the next level down
(2008-04-07 21:00:18) fenn: two is related to other packages in the db
(2008-04-07 21:00:22) kanzure: for people to follow and engineer new stuff if they want to
(2008-04-07 21:00:27) fenn: three is basic units and physical properties
(2008-04-07 21:00:31) kanzure: this sounds like namespaces on the wiki
(2008-04-07 21:00:40) fenn: four is semantic/specialized units
(2008-04-07 21:00:58) kanzure: okay
(2008-04-07 21:01:04) kanzure: even if one layer fails
(2008-04-07 21:01:06) kanzure: the others will still work
(2008-04-07 21:01:16) kanzure: so stuff can still be made and so on
(2008-04-07 21:01:19) fenn: five is simulated and auto-analyzed?
(2008-04-07 21:01:19) kanzure: and the system will still be useful
(2008-04-07 21:01:21) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-07 21:01:34) kanzure: if that is five, then five is debug stuff / logs of processing ?
(2008-04-07 21:01:46) kanzure: including human todo lists of the content?
(2008-04-07 21:01:56) kanzure: one useful namespace would be a todo/workspace / scratchpad
(2008-04-07 21:01:58) fenn: output of simulations, automatic, no human intervention
(2008-04-07 21:02:13) kanzure: simulation output should be local, i.e. whoever the programmer is
(2008-04-07 21:02:22) kanzure: not on the server, although server daemons can take requests - sure
(2008-04-07 21:02:23) fenn: i guess
(2008-04-07 21:02:36) fenn: it's just data, it doesnt matter where you do the simulations
(2008-04-07 21:02:40) kanzure: okay
(2008-04-07 21:03:19) fenn: phun does weird stuff to your brain.. makes all the words bounce off the sides of the window and ideas bounce around in your brain
(2008-04-07 21:03:20) kanzure: so each namespace would have its own XML/wiki-like fileformat specs?
(2008-04-07 21:03:42) kanzure: (wiki-namespace, that is)
(2008-04-07 21:04:06) kanzure: do we want those to be our finalized layers?
(2008-04-07 21:04:08) fenn: yea each specialized code module would have an XML DTD (or whatever's fashionable these days)
(2008-04-07 21:04:20) fenn: schema
(2008-04-07 21:04:21) drazak: anywho
(2008-04-07 21:04:21) kanzure: is DTD anything like BNF?
(2008-04-07 21:04:26) drazak: I'm going to go off for the night
(2008-04-07 21:04:30) kanzure: g'night drazak
(2008-04-07 21:04:32) kanzure: nice meeting you
(2008-04-07 21:04:35) drazak: yep
(2008-04-07 21:04:36) Enki-2 left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(2008-04-07 21:04:38) fenn: not really, it's less of a grammar, more format
(2008-04-07 21:04:43) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-07 21:04:53) fenn: i dont really know much about it actually
(2008-04-07 21:04:57) kanzure: me either
(2008-04-07 21:05:05) kanzure: I just know that w3c is under intense ping fire
(2008-04-07 21:05:11) kanzure: from people requesting the DTD for each page load
(2008-04-07 21:05:33) fenn: well that's dumb
(2008-04-07 21:05:45) kanzure: maybe in the last 3 seconds it's changed!
(2008-04-07 21:06:18) fenn: everything should be bittorrent by now sheesh
(2008-04-07 21:06:38) kanzure: haha
(2008-04-07 21:07:01) fenn: like, apache3 mod_torrent
(2008-04-07 21:07:09) fenn: every hosted file becomes a torrent
(2008-04-07 21:07:11) kanzure: uhh
(2008-04-07 21:07:18) kanzure: Enki-2 has some thoughts on this
(2008-04-07 21:07:26) kanzure: but on the other hand I thought you were joking
(2008-04-07 21:07:31) kanzure: there's no reason to do DTD requests on each page load
(2008-04-07 21:07:35) kanzure: just cache it once
(2008-04-07 21:07:40) kanzure: it's not changing ;)
(2008-04-07 21:07:52) fenn: why would a DTD be on w3c server anyway?
(2008-04-07 21:08:00) kanzure: they do HTML definition stuff
(2008-04-07 21:08:04) kanzure: Tim Berners-Lee et al
(2008-04-07 21:08:33) fenn: ok, so real basic stuff
(2008-04-07 21:08:51) kanzure: absolutely
(2008-04-07 21:09:23) epitron: !chat
(2008-04-07 21:09:24) krebs: it's just tagging and ontologies
(2008-04-07 21:09:27) epitron: !chat
(2008-04-07 21:09:28) krebs: i might rearrange one for Dvorak though
(2008-04-07 21:09:31) kanzure: ?
(2008-04-07 21:09:32) epitron: !chat
(2008-04-07 21:09:32) krebs: Tim Berners-Lee et al
(2008-04-07 21:09:35) epitron: :D
(2008-04-07 21:09:37) epitron: he's learning
(2008-04-07 21:09:45) fenn: argh kill it!
(2008-04-07 21:09:47) epitron: !chat about i think
(2008-04-07 21:09:47) krebs: i think I've narrowed down some ideas
(2008-04-07 21:09:50) epitron: !chat about i think
(2008-04-07 21:09:50) krebs: i think I have 4 of them, too
(2008-04-07 21:09:52) epitron: !chat about i think
(2008-04-07 21:09:52) krebs: i think I'd have to be the source code too
(2008-04-07 21:09:54) epitron: !chat about i think
(2008-04-07 21:09:55) krebs: i think I'd have to be our finalized layers?
(2008-04-07 21:10:08) fenn: !chat about epitron
(2008-04-07 21:10:08) krebs: incorrect usage, ask for help using 'krebs: help chat'
(2008-04-07 21:10:08) epitron: !chuck 8
(2008-04-07 21:10:09) krebs: Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad he has never cried. [score=8.319]
(2008-04-07 21:10:21) Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] entered the room.
(2008-04-07 21:10:30) fenn: stupid bot
(2008-04-07 21:10:39) epitron: must you knock everything fenn?
(2008-04-07 21:10:47) epitron: go get some antidepressants or something
(2008-04-07 21:10:49) kanzure: uhh
(2008-04-07 21:10:59) kanzure: you still play around with bots?
(2008-04-07 21:11:09) epitron: no, i just find them handy tools
(2008-04-07 21:11:12) epitron: for example
(2008-04-07 21:11:18) epitron: !urls search fenn
(2008-04-07 21:11:18) krebs: [2008/04/07 18:41:38] <fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/phun.png
(2008-04-07 21:11:35) epitron: !google the meaning of life
(2008-04-07 21:11:36) krebs: Results for the meaning of life: 1. Meaning of life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life | 2. The Meaning of Life (1983): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/ | 3. The Meaning of Life: Intro: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/the-meaning-of-life-intro/
(2008-04-07 21:11:39) fenn: *cough irc client cough*
(2008-04-07 21:11:52) kanzure: fenn: heh
(2008-04-07 21:12:02) epitron: fenn: what if you close it?
(2008-04-07 21:12:05) epitron: or login from school?
(2008-04-07 21:12:14) epitron: or you want to show another person on irc a link?
(2008-04-07 21:12:15) kanzure: ssh into your client
(2008-04-07 21:12:32) epitron: it's there if you need it
(2008-04-07 21:12:39) kanzure: not to spam us though :)
(2008-04-07 21:12:47) epitron: yes, spamming is bad :)
(2008-04-07 21:12:52) epitron: i just wanted to demonstrate
(2008-04-07 21:12:54) fenn: can you at least turn off the link title "feature"?
(2008-04-07 21:13:02) epitron: sure
(2008-04-07 21:13:07) epitron: if you guys don't want that, it's toggleable
(2008-04-07 21:13:26) fenn: tak
(2008-04-07 21:13:29) epitron: i find it useful
(2008-04-07 21:13:37) kanzure: that's only because you don't visit links :)
(2008-04-07 21:13:38) kanzure: haha
(2008-04-07 21:13:38) epitron: do you want it disabled kanz?
(2008-04-07 21:13:45) epitron: yep!
(2008-04-07 21:13:46) epitron: ;)
(2008-04-07 21:14:54) epitron: so i take that as an implicit yes
(2008-04-07 21:15:11) kanzure: fenn: do you want to set a target date for formal specifications? If I have the concepts down, I can go off to write them. Don't know if everything is crystal clear yet. you?
(2008-04-07 21:15:29) fenn: kanzure: http://slip.sourceforge.net/
(2008-04-07 21:15:29) krebs: [Link Info]
(2008-04-07 21:15:41) kanzure: ooh
(2008-04-07 21:15:43) kanzure: that looks interesting
(2008-04-07 21:15:54) kanzure: does this mean I have to learn python? :)
(2008-04-07 21:15:55) fenn: it's easy and readable and general
(2008-04-07 21:16:12) fenn: it's xml, not python
(2008-04-07 21:16:16) epitron: !config set url.display_link_info 0
(2008-04-07 21:16:17) krebs: okay then :)
(2008-04-07 21:16:20) fenn: but learning python would be a good thing i think
(2008-04-07 21:16:23) kanzure: yes
(2008-04-07 21:16:31) epitron: python is a piece of piss to learn
(2008-04-07 21:16:35) epitron: it took me an hour
(2008-04-07 21:16:42) epitron: the language is so simple :)
(2008-04-07 21:16:59) kanzure: I still have to go searching through the docs from time to time
(2008-04-07 21:17:07) kanzure: there are some little quirks that I am not familiar with
(2008-04-07 21:17:15) epitron: well, i can help
(2008-04-07 21:17:17) kanzure: rather important ones, I might add
(2008-04-07 21:17:18) epitron: i know it quite well
(2008-04-07 21:17:30) kanzure: great
(2008-04-07 21:17:45) epitron: i'm also familiar with many standard libraries :)
(2008-04-07 21:17:53) kanzure: fenn: so you think that's a good implementation for the units namespace?
(2008-04-07 21:17:54) epitron: and handy language features
(2008-04-07 21:18:21) kanzure: I guess we want to distinguish classes of units versus instances of units
(2008-04-07 21:18:44) kanzure: or would we just tag it {{Category:it's this class}} ?
(2008-04-07 21:19:10) kanzure: ansewr is no, but I'm getting my neurons to fire
(2008-04-07 21:19:13) kanzure: *answer
(2008-04-07 21:19:17) fenn: i spose you could do module.class or class.method or something
(2008-04-07 21:19:29) kanzure: we need include statements
(2008-04-07 21:19:35) fenn: not really
(2008-04-07 21:19:39) kanzure: what's the alternative
(2008-04-07 21:19:43) kanzure: I guess all units are specifying themselves
(2008-04-07 21:19:46) kanzure: and shouldn't rely on others?
(2008-04-07 21:19:54) kanzure: but there are different ways to interpret units, IIRC
(2008-04-07 21:20:01) fenn: if special units always include the module name then you can just load the modules listed in the file
(2008-04-07 21:20:05) kanzure: for example, energy can be joules and other forms
(2008-04-07 21:20:59) fenn: the standard physical units cover a lot of ground
(2008-04-07 21:21:23) kanzure: okay
(2008-04-07 21:21:26) kanzure: good point
(2008-04-07 21:21:37) kanzure: there's no reason to not use the direct units anyway
(2008-04-07 21:21:42) kanzure: no 'meta-units' that are just simplified packages
(2008-04-07 21:21:51) kanzure: erm, that are just encapsulations
(2008-04-07 21:22:00) kanzure: or if we do allow encapsulations, it's easy to specify them with a #REDIRECT
(2008-04-07 21:22:05) fenn: could you explain that so i know what you're talking about?
(2008-04-07 21:22:11) fenn: an example
(2008-04-07 21:22:18) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-07 21:22:21) epitron: what are you guys trying to create an ontology for?
(2008-04-07 21:22:24) kanzure: unit: Newtons
(2008-04-07 21:22:27) fenn: building stuff
(2008-04-07 21:22:36) epitron: so, all physical matter?
(2008-04-07 21:22:39) kanzure: Newtons are really just kilograms * m/sec^2
(2008-04-07 21:22:45) kanzure: but yet they are a unit
(2008-04-07 21:22:49) fenn: epitron: it's starting to look that way
(2008-04-07 21:22:57) kanzure: epitron: we hope to not go in circles
(2008-04-07 21:22:58) epitron: i think cyc has that already
(2008-04-07 21:23:01) epitron: along with ai rules
(2008-04-07 21:23:05) kanzure: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb
(2008-04-07 21:23:08) epitron: you could leverage that
(2008-04-07 21:23:15) epitron: (i have a research copy of cyc somewhere)
(2008-04-07 21:23:26) kanzure: that's a "common sense" database
(2008-04-07 21:23:56) epitron: right, but it's also extendable with predicates :)
(2008-04-07 21:23:57) fenn: last time i looked at cyc it didnt make any sense to me
(2008-04-07 21:23:59) epitron: and it can do processing
(2008-04-07 21:24:08) epitron: fenn: check out doug lenat's google tech talk
(2008-04-07 21:24:11) kanzure: Enki-2 might suggest predicate logic via prolog
(2008-04-07 21:24:14) epitron: fenn: their website is confusing
(2008-04-07 21:24:34) epitron: prolog is kinda brute force
(2008-04-07 21:24:46) kanzure: this is a brute force project ;)
(2008-04-07 21:24:48) epitron: i don't think people use prolog for large problem spaces
(2008-04-07 21:25:14) epitron: right but it's also incredibly huge in scope
(2008-04-07 21:25:18) kanzure: fenn: it's okay, problems will just show up as we go
(2008-04-07 21:25:23) kanzure: so as long as our software base is extendable we're ok
(2008-04-07 21:25:26) epitron: you can't use a brute force algorithm... it'll take eons
(2008-04-07 21:25:32) kanzure: the Newton = kg * m/sec^2 problem is not much of one
(2008-04-07 21:25:33) fenn: prolog eh.. that's like java isnt it
(2008-04-07 21:25:37) kanzure: is it?
(2008-04-07 21:25:45) epitron: it's nothing like java
(2008-04-07 21:25:59) fenn: i mean, its a crappy language that they use in universities and standards bodies
(2008-04-07 21:26:18) kanzure: at least it doesn't blow sun up your ass
(2008-04-07 21:26:30) kanzure: or maybe it does- I've never used it
(2008-04-07 21:26:34) kanzure: does Sun have an influence on prolog?
(2008-04-07 21:26:34) epitron: it's a languge for specifying logical constraints, then giving you particular solutions
(2008-04-07 21:26:46) epitron: it's what oldschool AI people thought AI would be
(2008-04-07 21:27:01) epitron: until they realized how intractible real world problems are when specified like that
(2008-04-07 21:27:22) epitron: kanzure: prolog is an academic language
(2008-04-07 21:27:23) epitron: :)
(2008-04-07 21:27:28) fenn: hmm ok
(2008-04-07 21:27:34) epitron: people use it for problems that require that kind of programming
(2008-04-07 21:27:38) epitron: but usually the problems can't be very big
(2008-04-07 21:27:51) fenn: why is it limited to small programs/
(2008-04-07 21:28:08) epitron: and if it's a common problem, people also usually reimplement the problem solver in another language and sell that
(2008-04-07 21:28:12) epitron: (like scheduling problems)
(2008-04-07 21:28:24) epitron: fenn: because it has to enumerate all possible states of your logical system
(2008-04-07 21:28:56) epitron: it's like O(n!) or something :)
(2008-04-07 21:29:03) fenn: why dont they use lazy evaluation then!
(2008-04-07 21:29:03) epitron: where n is the number of binary variables
(2008-04-07 21:29:30) epitron: uhmmm.. because it's not a functional language
(2008-04-07 21:29:40) epitron: it can optimize by caching previous states
(2008-04-07 21:29:52) epitron: but that doesn't help with states that aren't dependant on previous ones
(2008-04-07 21:30:07) epitron: also, it's usually not worth it to cache anything
(2008-04-07 21:30:17) epitron: because you'd blow out your RAM pretty fast
(2008-04-07 21:31:20) epitron: i'm sure there are more advanced logic solvers that use fancy optimization techniques to prune search space
(2008-04-07 21:31:27) epitron: but pure logic is limited
(2008-04-07 21:32:10) epitron: pure logical systems don't exist in nature... (except maybe at the lowest level)
(2008-04-07 21:32:30) epitron: (but to simulate the universe from the lowest level, you'd need an insanely powerful computer)
(2008-04-07 21:32:46) epitron: (basically you'd need another universe)
(2008-04-07 21:32:47) epitron: :D
(2008-04-07 21:34:14) fenn: well, prolog is something, but i dont think its worth using
(2008-04-07 21:34:20) epitron: me either
(2008-04-07 21:34:26) epitron: i recommended cyc :)
(2008-04-07 21:34:41) fenn: i'm watching the google talk.. well listening to it
(2008-04-07 21:34:46) epitron: sweet
(2008-04-07 21:35:12) epitron: i'm not sure you want to use the cyc inference engine, but their ontology seems quite well thought out
(2008-04-07 21:35:19) fenn: i bet cyc has a symbol grounding problem
(2008-04-07 21:35:28) epitron: at the least it would be good to yank data out of
(2008-04-07 21:35:39) epitron: what's a symbol grounding problem
(2008-04-07 21:35:51) epitron: nevermind, reading wikipedia
(2008-04-07 21:36:22) fenn: just a big blob of words
(2008-04-07 21:36:36) kanzure: we don't need just one ontology, epitron
(2008-04-07 21:36:37) epitron: yeah, it's more than that. it has relations
(2008-04-07 21:36:38) kanzure: many ontologies
(2008-04-07 21:36:40) kanzure: many approaches
(2008-04-07 21:36:44) kanzure: many ways to find what you are looking for
(2008-04-07 21:36:56) kanzure: while an overall search engine of all of the content would, of course, also be included
(2008-04-07 21:37:15) epitron: *sigh*
(2008-04-07 21:37:20) epitron: i guess i have to read your crazy wiki page. hold on.
(2008-04-07 21:37:34) fenn: no, i mean the words are related to each other, but it doesnt know what a square looks like, or how to build a bridge
(2008-04-07 21:37:44) kanzure: yep
(2008-04-07 21:38:06) epitron: right, but any AI would benefit hugely from something like cyc
(2008-04-07 21:38:29) fenn: yes of course
(2008-04-07 21:38:32) fenn: (if it works)
(2008-04-07 21:38:37) epitron: it's a shortcut to learning all the common-sense knowledge that it takes us the first 4 years of our lives to learn :)
(2008-04-07 21:41:22) epitron: kanzure: this wiki page is kinda confusing
(2008-04-07 21:41:35) fenn: another thing, not sure if its a problem, is that humans use categories, not strict logical relations
(2008-04-07 21:41:44) epitron: "the idea is to come up with as much social knowledge as possible (stuff that can't be derived from first principles on the spot) and then connect all of the components together and fish out the Hamiltonian paths."
(2008-04-07 21:41:51) epitron: what's social knowledge? :)
(2008-04-07 21:41:55) fenn: categories are a lot more fuzzy error resistant
(2008-04-07 21:42:22) epitron: fuzzy categories are fuzzy
(2008-04-07 21:42:27) epitron: tight categories are not :)
(2008-04-07 21:42:31) fenn: epitron: social knowledge is knowledge spread throughout a society
(2008-04-07 21:42:33) epitron: it all depends on how you define their boundaries
(2008-04-07 21:42:48) fenn: i'm pretty sure all categories are fuzzy
(2008-04-07 21:43:08) epitron: what about the category of all people who are exactly 5 feet tall
(2008-04-07 21:43:13) epitron: without shoes
(2008-04-07 21:43:16) fenn: that's not a category
(2008-04-07 21:43:19) epitron: when they wake up
(2008-04-07 21:43:20) epitron: :D
(2008-04-07 21:43:30) epitron: why isn't that a category?
(2008-04-07 21:43:49) epitron: category
(2008-04-07 21:43:49) epitron: n 1: a collection of things sharing a common attribute; "there
(2008-04-07 21:43:49) epitron: are two classes of detergents" [syn: {class}, {family}]
(2008-04-07 21:44:03) epitron: anyhow this is off the point
(2008-04-07 21:44:23) epitron: how is societal knowledge different from "stuff that can't be derived from first principles"?
(2008-04-07 21:44:40) epitron: you just mean, things that require experience?
(2008-04-07 21:45:17) fenn: some societal knowledge can be derived from mathematics
(2008-04-07 21:45:24) fenn: but then you have to derive it
(2008-04-07 21:45:53) fenn: i'm not interested in deriving things, because it's so hard to prove that it's right without actually testing it out
(2008-04-07 21:46:19) fenn: it might be useful later on though
(2008-04-07 21:48:13) fenn: there's a lot of 'probably's in cyc's output, i'd like to explicitly specify those assertions
(2008-04-07 21:48:39) epitron: so by societal knowledge, you just mean knowledge?
(2008-04-07 21:49:20) fenn: yeah pretty much
(2008-04-07 21:49:40) fenn: but it will be used by a disparate group of users
(2008-04-07 21:49:58) epitron: so this is some kind of collaborate knowledge system
(2008-04-07 21:50:02) fenn: people who dont necessarily know each other or have the same focus and goals
(2008-04-07 21:50:46) epitron: i think the wiki page would be better if it didn't talk about implementation before it's described the goals :)
(2008-04-07 21:51:45) fenn: um, it does
(2008-04-07 21:54:36) Noahj left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(2008-04-07 21:55:46) epitron: "The societal engineering knowledge database (skdb) is kind of like aptitude, yum, CPAN, rpm, etc., in that it hosts modules (blackboxes) for projects, whether digital or physical."
(2008-04-07 21:55:50) epitron: that's implementation
(2008-04-07 21:55:51) fenn: ok maybe not
(2008-04-07 21:56:00) fenn: wah.
(2008-04-07 21:56:26) epitron: you guys are attemping to solve a pretty difficult problem by yourselves
(2008-04-07 21:56:51) epitron: you should probably try to combine your efforts with other people who are trying to do the same thing
(2008-04-07 22:04:43) fenn: jeez this guy throws some AI jargon around like there's no tomorrow
(2008-04-07 22:06:02) fenn: "a small number of what we call sibling disjoint assertions in the knowledge base take the place of billions of class level disjointness assertions and hundreds of trillions of instance level non-set membership assertions"
(2008-04-07 22:21:24) kanzure: epitron: yes, the wiki page needs more work. I learned about OSCOMAK or whatever yesterday, and knew it was the same thing, but then realized that the wiki page didn't make this clear.
(2008-04-07 22:22:40) kanzure: epitron: also, there may be a better introduction on the self-replication page that describes the goals
(2008-04-07 22:22:48) kanzure: remember the idea about fishing out Hamiltonian cycles to find self-replicators?
(2008-04-07 22:22:51) kanzure: I remember you not being interested in that
(2008-04-07 22:22:57) kanzure: so that's probably why you don't remember.
(2008-04-07 22:22:57) epitron: haha
(2008-04-07 22:23:04) epitron: i'm not interested in the technical details until i know what the point is :)
(2008-04-07 22:23:11) epitron: that's all
(2008-04-07 22:23:15) kanzure: I've already told you the point
(2008-04-07 22:23:18) kanzure: you're still disinterested
(2008-04-07 22:23:19) kanzure: :(
(2008-04-07 22:23:24) epitron: ok :)
(2008-04-07 22:23:31) epitron: it's not that it's not cool
(2008-04-07 22:23:36) epitron: i just don't care about the nitty gritty
(2008-04-07 22:23:47) epitron: just like you probably don't care about the nitty gritty of whtaever weird esoteric thing i find intersting
(2008-04-07 22:24:13) kanzure: nope, remember I have my Infinite Motivator Drive.
(2008-04-07 22:24:26) epitron: i'm sure i can run it down :)
(2008-04-07 22:30:40) Aulere: epitron: have you *seen* heybryan.org? I wouldn't be so sure ;-)
(2008-04-07 22:31:18) kanzure: no, he hasn't
(2008-04-07 22:31:20) kanzure: he doesn't click on links.
(2008-04-07 22:32:25) Aulere: hehe
(2008-04-07 22:42:34) epitron: kanzure: i do click on your links
(2008-04-07 22:42:40) epitron: then i am confronted with a confounding mess of details
(2008-04-07 22:42:41) epitron: :)
(2008-04-07 22:42:44) epitron: and i close them
(2008-04-07 22:43:14) epitron: some of the pages are good... i can tell what it's about by the Table of Contents
(2008-04-07 22:43:26) epitron: but there's generally no introduction or summary
(2008-04-07 22:43:50) epitron: i mean, i'm not saying it should be different...
(2008-04-07 22:44:01) epitron: if you're working on something on the cutting edge, it has to be a mess first
(2008-04-07 22:44:20) epitron: you organize it and figure out the underlying coherent structure as you go along
(2008-04-07 22:44:31) epitron: but i don't wanna read it
(2008-04-07 22:44:32) epitron: :)
(2008-04-07 23:01:59) kanzure: I did a quick speed-post over at the Slashdot article on RepRap
(2008-04-07 23:01:59) kanzure: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=514462&cid=22996516
(2008-04-07 23:43:04) greeezy [n=gcohoon@24-205-170-43.dhcp.wsco.ca.charter.com] entered the room.
(2008-04-07 23:43:26) mefistofeles [n=Tathar@unaffiliated/mefistofeles] entered the room.
(2008-04-07 23:43:51) kanzure: welcome
(2008-04-07 23:43:59) kanzure: at the moment we're all sleeping, so feel free to idle arond
(2008-04-07 23:44:01) kanzure: *around
(2008-04-07 23:44:15) kanzure: and the /topic should have some good links to read through
(2008-04-07 23:44:26) greeezy: Exactly what i was doing right now :)
(2008-04-07 23:45:16) kanzure: update to self-replication page with link to http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=514462&cid=22996516 for review - I wrote this maybe 30 minutes ago and might be a better intro
(2008-04-08 00:09:46) kanzure: huh
(2008-04-08 00:09:51) kanzure: on a completely irrelevant note
(2008-04-08 00:10:45) kanzure: oh, nevermind
(2008-04-08 00:12:25) Aulere: ?
(2008-04-08 00:12:42) kanzure: Aulere: I just saw an argument for genetic testing for embryos, but then I realized I don't care.
(2008-04-08 00:12:55) Aulere: ah.
(2008-04-08 00:12:57) kanzure: here's how it went: suppose you are one of N embryos, all of which have an equal chance of getting randomly picked
(2008-04-08 00:13:12) kanzure: but then suppose you do genetics tests and then you are given a greater chance
(2008-04-08 00:13:31) kanzure: the argument then goes on to show that it does not change the odds of implantation occuring
(2008-04-08 00:13:39) kanzure: but rather the odds of greater well-being "for you" (being one of the embryos)
(2008-04-08 00:13:46) kanzure: now, I think the author means to say that
(2008-04-08 00:13:52) kanzure: "for you" is in the sense of ... once the embryo is already selected
(2008-04-08 00:13:58) kanzure: suggesting that the parents get to play a role in saying who's who
(2008-04-08 00:14:01) kanzure: but on the other hand, I don't really care
(2008-04-08 00:14:05) kanzure: just implant
(2008-04-08 00:14:11) Aulere: heh
(2008-04-08 00:14:35) kanzure: or, I mean to say that I don't care if you use genetic testing or evaluation, do whatever you want
(2008-04-08 00:16:47) Aulere: did the article specify which dispositions were being genetically tested for?
(2008-04-08 00:17:44) Aulere: I would care, depending on what was being screened out.
(2008-04-08 00:19:42) kanzure: well
(2008-04-08 00:19:45) kanzure: it was an email
(2008-04-08 00:19:52) Aulere: ah
(2008-04-08 00:19:58) kanzure: sent
(2008-04-08 00:20:08) Aulere: oh cool
(2008-04-08 00:22:40) Aulere: looks interesting - I'll read it tomorrow.
(2008-04-08 00:23:37) Aulere: this is just a study break ;-)
(2008-04-08 00:25:25) kanzure: sure
(2008-04-08 00:25:40) kanzure: don't bother reading much into it
(2008-04-08 00:25:45) kanzure: ethics is #politics
(2008-04-08 00:25:47) kanzure: this is #kickass
(2008-04-08 00:25:51) Aulere: hehe
(2008-04-08 00:26:11) Aulere: k
(2008-04-08 00:30:02) kanzure: http://www.openwetware.org/forum/ <-- on my radar
(2008-04-08 00:30:57) kanzure: http://igem.org/forum
(2008-04-08 00:31:07) mefistofeles left the room.