Conversation with #hplusroadmap at Fri 04 Apr 2008 07:00:25 AM CDT on kanzure@irc.freenode.net (irc)

(2008-04-04 07:00:25) The topic for #hplusroadmap is: happy bunny day - day of the replicator || http://heybryan.org/ http://fennetic.net/
(2008-04-04 07:00:27) kanzure: Pieter replied with Tay-Sachs syndrome and left it at that, but ..
(2008-04-04 07:00:35) kanzure: uh, I was kicked apparently
(2008-04-04 07:00:38) kanzure: please tell me my last message
(2008-04-04 07:00:38) fenn: you got kicked at (eye-sight & glasses) which btw is not due to genetics
(2008-04-04 07:00:54) kanzure: well, screw it, it doesn't matter that much
(2008-04-04 07:01:06) kanzure: it's about 'dysgenics'
(2008-04-04 07:01:15) kanzure: or the idea that medicine is bad because it makes people less dependent on their own genome
(2008-04-04 07:01:25) kanzure: so what the hell are they suggesting? that we stop treating people?
(2008-04-04 07:01:32) kanzure: that we stop doing tech?
(2008-04-04 07:02:13) fenn: 'we have to develop an ability to fix our own bugs - direct consequence of genetic improvement' this is stupid - it's more of a scientific and technological problem. eugenics people need to stop treating genetic improvement as a magic bullet
(2008-04-04 07:02:55) fenn: eugenics is an answer in search of a problem
(2008-04-04 07:02:55) kanzure: yes
(2008-04-04 07:03:00) kanzure: well
(2008-04-04 07:03:08) kanzure: they claim the problem is stuff like stupidity, overpopulation, and other bullshit like that
(2008-04-04 07:03:18) fenn: overpopulation?
(2008-04-04 07:03:18) kanzure: energy crisis too
(2008-04-04 07:03:29) kanzure: eugenics may be a front for master-race ideologies
(2008-04-04 07:03:33) fenn: well duh
(2008-04-04 07:03:54) kanzure: okay, so for the Tay-Sachs syndrome argument -- I'm going to respond with "My genes, my choice."
(2008-04-04 07:03:59) kanzure: if I want to have Tay-Sachs, let me have it
(2008-04-04 07:04:03) fenn: only way to deal with this is to exercise extreme rationality and precise thinking
(2008-04-04 07:04:11) kanzure: yes,
(2008-04-04 07:04:18) kanzure: I've been elaborating my arguments to extreme detail
(2008-04-04 07:04:26) kanzure: and I've been relying on my type-1 v. type-2 definitions
(2008-04-04 07:04:32) kanzure: techno-humanism != personal genomic improvement
(2008-04-04 07:04:36) fenn: re: tay-sachs how are you supposed to make a choice before you're born?
(2008-04-04 07:04:44) kanzure: well, personally,
(2008-04-04 07:04:50) kanzure: I say let whoever is breeding or whatever choose
(2008-04-04 07:04:59) kanzure: now, it is indeed unfortunate for a suffering being to exist, but so what?
(2008-04-04 07:05:04) fenn: if i want my child to have tay-sachs, let me have it
(2008-04-04 07:05:06) kanzure: right
(2008-04-04 07:05:10) fenn: ok
(2008-04-04 07:05:11) kanzure: but those are your genes basically
(2008-04-04 07:05:16) kanzure: this is self-modification/self-replication
(2008-04-04 07:05:23) kanzure: if you can't design your own child as you want, then what's the freakin' point?
(2008-04-04 07:05:34) kanzure: are we going to have some Child Police running around, examining my children?
(2008-04-04 07:05:46) kanzure: "Hey, this one's too smart! Smart gene 390414!"
(2008-04-04 07:05:56) fenn: ugh you have no idea
(2008-04-04 07:06:00) kanzure: hm?
(2008-04-04 07:06:11) fenn: being a parent is not like being a normal human with rights
(2008-04-04 07:06:16) kanzure: oh?
(2008-04-04 07:06:49) kanzure: (of course, we both agree 'rights' to be bullshit techno-humanism)
(2008-04-04 07:06:49) fenn: i'm not a parent, i've just been examining my roommate and his interactions with the state's child police branch
(2008-04-04 07:07:55) kanzure: child abuse stuff?
(2008-04-04 07:08:54) fenn: more like, you have to express a certain set of views, teach your child certain things, or they claim you are a bad parent and try to take your kids away
(2008-04-04 07:09:45) fenn: basically "bad parent" means "bad person"
(2008-04-04 07:10:06) fenn: regardless what you actually do
(2008-04-04 07:10:07) kanzure: yikes
(2008-04-04 07:10:18) kanzure: now, in all fairness,
(2008-04-04 07:10:23) kanzure: they are fighting a pretty big 'problem' in their own views
(2008-04-04 07:10:34) kanzure: namely there's been this big historical context of rampant child abuse
(2008-04-04 07:10:44) fenn: yes
(2008-04-04 07:10:46) kanzure: but there's also been "people abuse" anyway
(2008-04-04 07:10:51) kanzure: it's a much larger problem than they care to admit
(2008-04-04 07:11:19) kanzure: I think that if we empower those kids to do what they need to do to get out of those situations, give them fabbers or something, they can easily pick up their stuff and leave
(2008-04-04 07:11:33) kanzure: but I'm sure as hell not going to raid homes and steal children
(2008-04-04 07:11:59) fenn: the way i see it, the accepted norms of child rearing are much more hurtful than most alternative value systems
(2008-04-04 07:12:11) kanzure: I'm trapped in a norm, as you know
(2008-04-04 07:12:18) Enki-2 left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(2008-04-04 07:12:25) kanzure: my father flat out refuses to see the lack of benefit of going to high school
(2008-04-04 07:12:33) kanzure: even in the internet age
(2008-04-04 07:12:34) fenn: discipline, expectations, trained to enjoy submission to authority and boredom
(2008-04-04 07:12:39) kanzure: sure
(2008-04-04 07:12:45) kanzure: re: boredom, see reciprocality
(2008-04-04 07:12:53) fenn: i've read some of it
(2008-04-04 07:13:02) kanzure: link in a sec
(2008-04-04 07:13:03) kanzure: ah, good
(2008-04-04 07:13:15) kanzure: yeah, so boredom can be considered with respect to dopamine
(2008-04-04 07:13:17) fenn: the "ghost not" was a bit hard to follow
(2008-04-04 07:13:23) kanzure: yes, I kinda lost interest around there
(2008-04-04 07:13:32) kanzure: but I do agree that there might be some massive chemical networks building up like that across society
(2008-04-04 07:13:44) kanzure: it's "neurochemical kinship"
(2008-04-04 07:14:11) fenn: it's not just occupational behavior, food too
(2008-04-04 07:14:23) kanzure: lots of economics (unfortunately) play into it, then
(2008-04-04 07:14:38) fenn: occupation is the big one though
(2008-04-04 07:15:08) fenn: i dont even know where to begin with that
(2008-04-04 07:15:12) kanzure: I've been seeing a lot of "us v. them" mentality recently, maybe it's just me (even though I don't support it)
(2008-04-04 07:15:20) kanzure: it seems like I can plainly cut the U.S. population into two groups
(2008-04-04 07:15:26) kanzure: those on the autism spectrum and those who are flat out bored
(2008-04-04 07:15:50) kanzure: the boredom-folks seem to treat autism and other interesting brain programs as "diseases" that must be eliminated
(2008-04-04 07:15:57) fenn: 'autism spectrum' does this really mean anything?
(2008-04-04 07:16:08) kanzure: perhaps not
(2008-04-04 07:16:34) kanzure: it just seems as close to type-1 v. type-2 transhumanism topics as ever
(2008-04-04 07:16:41) kanzure: anyway, I don't want to elaborate because it doesn't matter
(2008-04-04 07:17:05) kanzure: I have a few more minutes this morning to get some work done, so I'm going to drop you with a few links and then go sketch out a few documents
(2008-04-04 07:17:36) fenn: seeya
(2008-04-04 07:17:39) kanzure: particularly I'm planning on (1) an article on eugenics much like my transhumanist-def page, so that we can do that 'extreme analysis' of various definitions
(2008-04-04 07:17:46) kanzure: and then (2) I'm going back to Ellington's challenge for me
(2008-04-04 07:17:52) kanzure: still looking for problem spaces that DNA can work in
(2008-04-04 07:17:56) kanzure: did you get my email last night on this?
(2008-04-04 07:18:19) kanzure: no, apparently not
(2008-04-04 07:18:22) fenn: no
(2008-04-04 07:18:38) Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] entered the room.
(2008-04-04 07:18:39) kanzure: so this guy is sending me mixed signals
(2008-04-04 07:18:44) kanzure: he claims that nucleic acids are not good for computation
(2008-04-04 07:18:47) kanzure: which I completely agree with
(2008-04-04 07:19:00) fenn: i wouldnt say that.. thy're just slow
(2008-04-04 07:19:02) kanzure: but then says "Find me a class of algorithms / problems where the inherent abilities of DNA or biomolecules will shine."
(2008-04-04 07:19:10) kanzure: so why do something slow when you can do it otherwise
(2008-04-04 07:19:17) kanzure: it seems to me that he's trying to point me towards 'matter programming'
(2008-04-04 07:19:23) fenn: because it's error-tolerant
(2008-04-04 07:19:23) kanzure: programming with biomolecules is not the same thing as programming with FETs
(2008-04-04 07:19:36) kanzure: _but_ then why just implement logic gates?
(2008-04-04 07:19:45) kanzure: maybe it's more about GRNs, genetic regulation networks
(2008-04-04 07:19:48) fenn: dunno, the logic gates thing always seemed dumb to me
(2008-04-04 07:19:53) kanzure: but even then, these GRNs are mostly just made up of logic stuff
(2008-04-04 07:20:17) fenn: the interesting stuff in my opinion is the self-modifying RNA sequences
(2008-04-04 07:20:19) kanzure: show me a GRN that cannot be modeled as a rate problem or if/then problem with discrete units (you can't - it's all fundamentally discrete since you have enes there)
(2008-04-04 07:20:24) kanzure: sure
(2008-04-04 07:20:28) kanzure: self-modification is awesome
(2008-04-04 07:20:31) kanzure: the DNA-tiling too
(2008-04-04 07:20:42) kanzure: he wants me to come up with an application for my DNA compiler
(2008-04-04 07:20:46) kanzure: but if it's not for computation
(2008-04-04 07:20:53) kanzure: then I don't know why you would even *use* a compiler
(2008-04-04 07:21:36) fenn: 'emergent properties' is a red herring - what you want is orthogonality
(2008-04-04 07:21:58) kanzure: not synergy?
(2008-04-04 07:21:59) fenn: variables that can be combined in many ways
(2008-04-04 07:22:27) fenn: i think orthogonality is more specific than either
(2008-04-04 07:24:46) kanzure: I was thinking of doing a review of all synthetic circuits constructed to date
(2008-04-04 07:24:51) kanzure: and then saying "Hey, we haven't done this yet, how about it?"
(2008-04-04 07:25:06) kanzure: and then a review of computational-DNA physics/thermodynamics/comp-sci to show a class of problems that DNA can do
(2008-04-04 07:25:53) fenn: try to find a way to factor prime numbers
(2008-04-04 07:26:01) kanzure: why
(2008-04-04 07:26:06) kanzure: that's computational, and computers are better at that
(2008-04-04 07:26:14) kanzure: si-computers, I mean
(2008-04-04 07:26:15) fenn: it's a highly parallel problem
(2008-04-04 07:26:22) fenn: and in much demand
(2008-04-04 07:26:33) kanzure: more importantly, I don't want to actually solve this problem right off the bat
(2008-04-04 07:26:35) kanzure: if I can, that'd be great
(2008-04-04 07:26:40) fenn: of course you'll break the world if you succeed
(2008-04-04 07:26:58) fenn: s/world/internet/
(2008-04-04 07:26:58) kanzure: I want to get into the lab over the summer
(2008-04-04 07:27:05) kanzure: I fear that this guy has given me a near impossible task
(2008-04-04 07:27:10) kanzure: but I can't prove this
(2008-04-04 07:27:19) fenn: it's probably just not what you're interested in
(2008-04-04 07:27:22) kanzure: otherwise I'd email him back and prove it to him and say "what gives, buddy, trying to set me up?"
(2008-04-04 07:27:38) kanzure: maybe
(2008-04-04 07:27:41) kanzure: but it looks like a 'hard' problem
(2008-04-04 07:27:59) kanzure: and frankly I need the hard experience
(2008-04-04 07:28:12) kanzure: too many people have been calling bullshit on me and telling me to get into a lab to see how the "real world" works
(2008-04-04 07:28:29) fenn: well, the 'real world' is depressing and takes fucking forever to get anything done
(2008-04-04 07:28:41) fenn: especially when you're sitting there moving drops of liquid around by hand
(2008-04-04 07:28:55) fenn: that's what biotech lab is, basically
(2008-04-04 07:29:16) fenn: but if you feel it will give you some clout/credentials, go for it
(2008-04-04 07:29:47) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-04 07:30:24) fenn: university bio labs are amazingly primitive
(2008-04-04 07:31:45) fenn: did you see this? http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=DNA_Origami_-_Creating_the_Nanorex_logo
(2008-04-04 07:36:03) kanzure: neat
(2008-04-04 07:37:13) fenn: the dna origami algorithm doesnt work the way i thought it did
(2008-04-04 07:37:32) fenn: thought it was all one string, but apparently there are little strands that help it self-assemble in the right order
(2008-04-04 07:39:35) fenn: DNA is interesting because of massively parallel recombination, so think about that
(2008-04-04 07:40:45) fenn: "we're not going to beat electronic algorithmic execution" not serial algorithms, but you can definitely beat it in parallel algorithms
(2008-04-04 07:44:36) fenn: if it were me, i'd jump on the winfree bandwagon
(2008-04-04 07:46:34) kanzure: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Ellingtonia
(2008-04-04 07:46:36) kanzure: haha
(2008-04-04 07:46:53) kanzure: re: DNA and recombination, yes, but that requires evolvability I think
(2008-04-04 07:46:56) kanzure: and that means cells, in generla
(2008-04-04 07:46:58) kanzure: *general
(2008-04-04 07:47:04) kanzure: otherwise you can't do a selection experiment
(2008-04-04 07:47:20) kanzure: I just had an idea -- maybe Ellington is thinking that transcriptional logic could mean something like 'logic in realtime experiments' or something
(2008-04-04 07:48:34) fenn: like, if (lactose and lacZ): die
(2008-04-04 07:48:52) fenn: or was it lacI
(2008-04-04 07:48:53) fenn: bah
(2008-04-04 07:49:01) kanzure: nope, think about this
(2008-04-04 07:49:06) kanzure: suppose that he means computational physics in a sense
(2008-04-04 07:49:16) kanzure: to run simulated experiments in silico we need lots of library overhead
(2008-04-04 07:49:23) kanzure: with DNA we have the advantage of DNA being right there
(2008-04-04 07:49:24) kanzure: as the substrate
(2008-04-04 07:49:38) kanzure: and interesting/novel properties can be investigated as a matter of course of programming with the biomolecules themselves
(2008-04-04 07:50:11) kanzure: you get to avoid physics libraries/packages because you're implementing directly on physical matter in the first place
(2008-04-04 07:50:55) fenn: cant see how that's worth the trouble
(2008-04-04 07:51:06) fenn: simulations are supposed to make your life easier
(2008-04-04 07:51:39) kanzure: But how large is the class of computational physics that can be investigated via in vitro nucleic acid logic, in a way that is more useful than simulations on supercomputers?
(2008-04-04 07:52:03) fenn: nucleic acid physics :)
(2008-04-04 07:52:38) fenn: what's "computational physics"?
(2008-04-04 07:52:48) kanzure: molecular dynamics, for example
(2008-04-04 07:52:51) kanzure: computational chem
(2008-04-04 07:52:53) kanzure: etc.
(2008-04-04 07:52:58) fenn: well, DNA is DNA
(2008-04-04 07:53:09) fenn: you arent going to investigate the properties of, say, cobalt
(2008-04-04 07:54:06) fenn: it can be useful for bringing together materials, as a catalyst
(2008-04-04 07:54:30) fenn: because of binding specificity
(2008-04-04 07:54:38) kanzure: how is that computational?
(2008-04-04 07:54:39) kanzure: hehe
(2008-04-04 07:54:57) kanzure: I'm pretty sure this is a smart guy, why the hell would he box himself in to nucleic acids
(2008-04-04 07:55:07) kanzure: obviously he wants his minions to do the hard work here
(2008-04-04 07:55:11) kanzure: but why would he do that
(2008-04-04 07:55:24) fenn: well, if beaker A combines cobalt and samarium, and beaker B combines cobalt and yttrium, you've done an experiment?
(2008-04-04 07:55:44) kanzure: computational separation of materials?
(2008-04-04 07:56:26) fenn: computers just move bits around, and so a matter computer just moves molecules around?
(2008-04-04 07:56:37) fenn: whatever 'matter computer' is
(2008-04-04 07:56:58) fenn: probably comes from 'matter compiler' in the diamond age
(2008-04-04 07:57:35) fenn: ah i've got it
(2008-04-04 07:57:42) kanzure: hm
(2008-04-04 07:57:58) fenn: because in nanosynthesis you need to do complex sequences
(2008-04-04 07:58:07) kanzure: yeah?
(2008-04-04 07:58:12) fenn: and since DNA makes a handy nano-scale computer, you can do that
(2008-04-04 07:58:30) fenn: blah
(2008-04-04 07:58:33) fenn: good luck
(2008-04-04 07:58:41) kanzure: yeah, not good
(2008-04-04 07:58:58) kanzure: oh
(2008-04-04 07:59:09) kanzure: DNA compiler (mine) -> in vitro implementation of my program -> as a matter compiler
(2008-04-04 07:59:13) kanzure: the program that will be running will compile matter
(2008-04-04 07:59:37) kanzure: okay, so I just need to do patterned synthesis in vitro or something
(2008-04-04 07:59:39) kanzure: from logic control
(2008-04-04 07:59:40) kanzure: is that good enough?
(2008-04-04 07:59:50) fenn: i dunno